User blog:BarrelHornet3/Hidden Kill Count for Pawn Bestiary Knowledge
ETA: For any who are interested in learning more about Kill Count requirements for individual enemies, there is a Google Docs spreadsheet with information about filling out the Bestiary as well as estimates and confirmed Kill Count requirments. DA: Bestiary Spreadsheet Original Entry I came across a very interesting thread on the PSN GameFAQs site. This information may be common knowledge to some, others may not agree with the findings. For many of us who are interested in extending our experience of the game beyond the Questing and Dragon hunting, this information may prove useful. With the author's permission, I am posting his work to open it up to discussion to a wider audience. The author, HastatusAtratus, may visit this blog from time to time to see what, if anything, this community has to say about his work and, of course, any are free to visit and comment directly on the original thread Pawn 3rd Star Bestiary Knowledge: Proof of the Hidden Kill Count Requirement as long as it remains active. If you care about maxing out your pawn knowledge, the following knowledge is important to understand and might help prevent much undo frustration. Experiment #1: Pyre Saurians When I was at 187 Pyre Saurians killed in my Arisen's History, I would get my third star upon reaching 191 kills no matter how I killed them. I godsbaned half a dozen times trying different combinations and methods of kills, but it was always on the 191st kill. I godsbaned and left without killing any Pyre Saurians and went to rest at an inn so that Selene would remain at 2 stars. A helpful OPSC member, Sezra, hired Selene and killed 4 Pyre Saurians: Selene came back to me with her third star. Experiment #2: Banshees When I was at 163 banshees killed in my Arisen’s History, I would get my third star upon reaching 168 kills no matter what techniques I employed to kill them. I godsbaned several times and always got the third star upon reaching 168 kills. A helpful OPSC member, Enneagramm, hired Selene and killed 5 Banshees: Selene came back to me with her third star. Results: This proves that pawns have their own invisible kill counts (i.e. a total of number kills that combines kills they witness or perform with their owner AND with renters). This also proves that for at least some enemies (and possibly all enemies) one of the requirements for getting 3 stars is for the pawn to witness a certain minimum number of kills for that enemy. Keep in mind that some players will reach the invisible kill count requirement before completing the other types of requirements; while others will complete the other types of requirements before reaching the invisible kill count requirement. Important Note: Two of my testers, Enneagramm and Paasky, noted that they did not see Selene make a comment upon the final kill, nor was a third star visible to them when they had obtained the required kills. This suggests that only the number of kills for each enemy is sent to the owner and added to the pawn’s hidden master kill count list which is saved on the save file and not on the server. In other words pawns do not bring their hidden total kill counts with them when they are rented, probably to prevent extraneous data taking up server space. Selene and I thank the OPSC members from the original DD PS3 board Sezra, Paasky, and Enneagramm for assisting me with my experiment and shining light on why some people have difficulties earning their third bestiary stars. Cheers. Experiment #3: Direwolf I killed a little over 500 Direwolves for Akuna_818’s Isabel, but I was watching tv and the game’s sound was not on so I didn’t witness what triggered the 3rd star. I suspect it was reaching 500 kills with Isabel present. Experiment #4: Undead Warriors I killed 160 Undead Warriors for Akuna_818’s Isabel. She was still missing the third star when she was released by me. Akuna_818’s kill count for Undead Warriors was 365. The Japanese Wiki's estimate for the minimum kills is 500. 365 + 160 = 525, so the kill count for Isabel was now definitely over 500 and she ended up receiving her third star didn’t seem to notice, but when I rented Isabel again she had all three stars. Again not very conclusive since Akuna or someone else could have learned a technique in the meantime, but chances of this are slim. Experiment #5: Griffins I hired two pawns which were missing their 3rd stars: Akuna_818’s Isabel and Shadow_Assasin29’s Luna. I taught everything I could to Isabel before re-renting her (using both every scroll and techniques in the field such as: shield toss three person hold take down, use of fire magic, burning wings, stricking head and proper use of shield drum). I did not teach Luna anything (she only had 1 star when we started and during the hunting spree she managed to reach 2 stars). I rented Luna on Isabel’s second Griffin kill. Isabel learned of beasts and obtained her third star on the 15th Griffin kill 14th kill). Upon Luna’s 15th Griffin kill she learned a new way to fight their ilk but did not earn her third star because I had intentionally not taught her all the tactics did earn her the third star after one more fight during which I taught her what she was missing. Results: This confirms the required minimum kill count for griffins is definitely 15 (as the Japanese wiki states) and probably 500 for Undead Warriors and Direwolves (also as the Japanese wiki states). This also confirms that the hidden kill count totals do not accompany the pawns when they are rented. This means that when a pawn is rented the kills they obtain are recorded, but only up to the minimum kill count that is PART of the requirement for third bestiary stars: i.e. the programmers saw no need to keep higher counts than the minimum kill count (since the player cannot ever see the actual count anyways) and so the star is automatically triggered if the total required is reached on the renter’s end during ONE rental phase extremely rare situation. If the minimum kill count is not reached by the renter: the kills will be transferred over and added to the master hidden kill count record on the owner’s save file upon which the minimum total may or may not yet be reached. Using this method it would be possible to determine the exact minimum kill count requirements for each enemy (except certain bosses like Grigori and the Seneschal). These experiments prove that there are hidden minimum kill counts for Vanilla monsters in addition to the BBI monsters that must be met in order to obtain the third bestiary stars. Estimates for the Vanilla enemy minimum kill counts can be viewed on the Japanese Wiki Experiment #6: Grimgoblins Rented Akuma_818's pawn Isabel without the minimum kill count for grimgoblins. I killed exactly 300 grimgoblins and she learned a new technique / way to fight their ilk. I godsbaned several times and it was always the 300th kill no matter how I killed them. So the minimum kill count for grimgoblins is indeed 300. Further proof of Vanilla enemy kill count requirements. How do I know how many kills a rented pawn has? The answer is quite simple: When you rent a pawn their hidden kill count = zero for every enemy when they are first hired by a renter. Kill counts are transferred from renter to owner, but never owner to renter. This means the kill count for a pawn is all zeros when they first arrive during a rental. How do I know this: From experiments # 1 & 2 I learned that there is a hidden kill count that triggers knowledge when the count is reached. I know this to be true because I noticed that I was missing 4 kills for Pyre Saurians and 5 kills for Banshees. No matter how many times I godsbaned, no matter how many ways I killed the enemies the knowledge was always triggered at a specific number of kills and my 3rd stars always appeared. Now in order to test my theory I decided to remain godsbaned and rested at an inn (i.e. maintaining my 2 star bestiary knowledge). I then asked people to rent my pawn and go kill only 4 Pyre Saurians and 5 Banshees. They did so. They noticed that nothing happened: no star was triggered and no statement of knowledge appeared.When I rested at an inn and received my rents, my pawn stated that knowledge was gained and the 3rd stars appeared for both enemies. Note that each enemy was done separately at a different time with different rents. From these first two experiments I learned something about the nature of the data stream that occurs between the renter and the Arisen. I knew that I needed 4 more kills for Pyre Saurians and 5 more kills for Banshees. I knew that PHKC + 4 = 3rd Pyre Saurian star and PHKC + 5 = 3rd Banshee star when it was accomplished on my own account (PHKC = pawn’s hidden kill count; note that there is one for every unique enemy type). I learned that the statement of knowledge and the 3rd stars did not appear on the renter’s accounts while they had my pawn. I know that when they sent my pawn back to me the 3rd stars and knowledge were triggered. Therefore I know that the pawn’s total kill count is only present on the owner’s account and does not travel with the pawn. This makes sense because the programmers are unlikely to want to have a pawn’s file carrying around a massive file of kill counts from renter to renter. So in order to minimize the amount of data necessary they start a new/fresh hidden kill count for rented pawns and transfer the kills over to the owner when a pawn is sent back / released. Now here’s where it gets interesting. And you have to know how the above works in order to make this connection: I knew that the hidden kill count log for a pawn is all zeros when a pawn is first rented (zeros for the person doing the renting, not the owner of the pawn). I wondered what would happen if I reached the minimum kill count for an enemy type during one pawn rental when I knew that the pawn started with all zeros. I rented two pawns and started killing griffins. I rented them askew so that one pawn already had one griffin kill before I hired the second: so that pawn#1’s 15th griffin kill was pawn#2’s 14th griffin kill. When I had killed 15 griffins with pawn#1 they stated knowledge learned and received their 3rd Griffin star. Pawn#2 didn’t learn anything or say anything as it was only their 14th Griffin kill. After one more kill, Pawn#2 received their 15th Griffin kill and stated that they had learned knowledge, but they did not earned their 3rd star. Pawn#2 did not earn their 3rd star because I still needed to teach them an actual technique which I did on the next kill at which point they too received their 3rd Griffin star. From this Griffin experiment I know that if a renter kills the total minimum kill count of an enemy type during a single rent of a pawn that is missing the minimum kill count they will trigger the knowledge statement and possibly the 3rd star if every other technique has already been learned. This again shows that a kill count is kept for each rented pawn, but the previous kills are not transmitted from the owner to the renter: kills are only transferred one direction: from the renter to the owner. But since the programmers see no need to record excess data once a rented pawn’s minimum kill count is reached the game sees no need to keep count beyond that figure and so converts it immediately to knowledge learned and possibly also a 3rd star which is then transferred over instead of the kill count. In order to confirm reaching this fresh minimum total kill count on freshly rented pawns I rented a pawn that needed the Grimgoblin’s total minimum kill count knowledge. When I started and brought the pawn from the rift I had 223 grimgoblin kills and the pawn had 0 (because its kill count totals were not carried over from her Arisen’s account). When I reached exactly 523 grimgoblin kills: the rented pawn learned grimgoblin knowledge. I godsbaned several times and the pawn always learned knowledge on the 523rd kill for me, but the 300th kill for the rented pawn. I came up with a hypothesis. I tested the hypothesis. I am able to reproduce the results with different enemies and different pawns. Thus ends HastatusAtratus' post. In closing, I'd like to add that the deduction that pawns are rented with their kill count set to zero, I think, is the key to deciphering the hidden kill counts for Pawns. This gives us the ability to identify the actual number of kills necessary to fulfill that requirement. If a rented Pawn tells us he's learned of beasts and it is not associated with witnessing a technique we have a pretty good idea of the hidden number requirement provided we have kept track of how many were killed. As HastatusAtratus, found through experiments, rented Pawns will only announce that knowledge associated with kill count has been learned when the total requirement is reached. When only a partial number is acquired, they will wait to tell their owner when they are returned. Category:Blog posts